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Post by 58chevy on Dec 17, 2021 7:53:17 GMT -8
Vernon, what are the most obvious differences between ilia & umbrosa?
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Post by rayrard on Dec 17, 2021 12:49:48 GMT -8
Vernon, what are the most obvious differences between ilia & umbrosa? inaturalist-open-data.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/153175621/original.jpgCheck this image for a line up of two dark ilia compared to an umbrosa from CT My first umbrosa was quite like a very unmarked brown ilia but it is noticeably plain and uncontrasting. Ilia will usually have lots of white and black markings and outlines to the reniform spot, and even the satanas forms are grayer to blacker. Umbrosa is very brown overall and is found only locally in sand barrens/pine plains in the northeast. On iNaturalist I see the umbrosa records show up a little earlier than ilia in Texas, where most of the umbrosa records I see are from.
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Post by trehopr1 on Dec 17, 2021 22:57:13 GMT -8
Hello Rayrand, I too am an enthusiast of these lovely moths for their beauty, variety, and spotty occurrences of some species. Though, I am admittedly (hardly) the avid enthusiast that you are I try to find what I can most summers. Probably my best exploits in these moths come from the farthest southern counties of my state (Illinois). Here I have encountered at least 3 of the species found on your recent posting. Only 2 specimens though of each. Those found were atocala, angusi, and ulalume. Although, I have also collected 3 examples of sappho (which I have been told has not been noted here for 100 years). Below, I have 2 photographs featuring specimens/species I've collected and these will be followed by a couple more photographs from a friends collection which he has picked up over the years; (his only examples) from the same region. Catocala angusi (my only 2 encountered so far). Catocala atocala (one of only two ever found); this one is A1-/A2 quality (not bad). Catocala connubialis (two pristine examples my friend encountered in southern Illinois). Catocala atocala (my friends two decent examples also found in southern Illinois). So, it seems no matter what state you call home there are certain species of these moths which will always remain anomalies to encounter or species which may never be found. I sometimes wonder how many of these Catocala species are ACTUALLY known from fewer than a dozen or so specimens. I'll bet there are a few...
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Post by rayrard on Dec 17, 2021 23:18:10 GMT -8
The atocala are surely one of the prizes of the east. The west has a bunch of rare species too but they are not as distinctive as the rare eastern species. You don't see ulalume, insoliabilis, angusi, sappho, marmorata, and myristica very often, and there are a lot of small yellow ones that are very rare. I think myristica is similar in rarity to atocala but they live in different regions. Species I have encountered that may be considered prizes by people not in my area are things like Catocala jair and herodias. Of course imagine going to Asia and looking for Catocala there where there are species few people have collected.
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Post by jhyatt on Dec 18, 2021 6:52:39 GMT -8
Rayrard,
C. delilah is another one that's pretty uncommon, and very scattered in localities. I have a few I've taken at one single locality on the coast of Georgia, but have never found it elsewhere.
jh
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Post by vabrou on Dec 18, 2021 8:00:37 GMT -8
R egarding umbrosa vs ilia I can send you pdfs of the several publications I did about these matters. E-mail me. No real name, no real address, don't bother, I don't respond to unknown persons Yes umbrosa Brou is a somewhat monotone colored species which can be dark brown to light brown, but never with any white on the forewings. I noted lots of C. umbrosa images on iNat, some are C. umbrosa, some are actually C. ilia. Based upon 20 years of daily capture records, the flight peak for ilia here at my home location occurs the second week of May, while the flight peak for umbrosa occurs the third week of May. The male genitalia were dissected and showed little if any variation within each species, but the genitalia of the two species were (very) distinctly different in appearance from each other. Just as in Catocala atocala Brou, none of the long lists of past and present experts ever looked at the genitalia, or this would have long ago described as a new distinct species. You need to know, I have captured over 10,000 adults of both umbrosa and ilia over the past 52 years. Here I capture two ilia for every one umbrosa. Type is illustrated at this link: www.inaturalist.org/observations/103249956
Also link to old film side by side image of male and female C. atocala Brou. www.inaturalist.org/observations/32922975
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Post by boghaunter1 on Dec 18, 2021 9:36:43 GMT -8
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Post by vabrou on Dec 18, 2021 16:14:31 GMT -8
FYI, (2018, page 9) The two Catocala adults you illustrate are 100% not Catocala umbrosa Brou. Larry Gall knows better than that. These are both Catocala ilia. When I published the TYPE and Paratype localities in 2002, I listed as Paratypes. Canada: Quebec: Ste-Anne de Bellevue, Morgan Arboretum, 3 males & 6 females 15 July to August, 1992-97. These 'Quebec' adults were part of a huge loan of spread specimens of both ilia and umbrosa from the Florida State Collection of Arthropods, Gainesville, Florida. What I didn't learn until years later was that these Quebec specimens were donated to the FSCA in person by the collector, Jean-Guy Filiatrault, a no good bas-tard if there ever was one. This low life wintered in Florida, from Canada, for many years, and he actually collected them there (Florida) but placed Quebec locality labels on them. This fool is about 85 years old if he is still with the living. He later admitted to me that he placed those labels so that the Florida personnel would accept them, thinking they would be more valuable to the collection than more specimens captured locally in Florida. So, as a result, the scientific literature was compromised, and I have never actually seen valid umbrosa from any Canada location, yet. The states represented in my lengthy TYPE SERIES of Catocala umbrosa Brou 2002 included: Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana (434 adults), Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania. Every one of the adults listed in the description were personally (validated) seen by me. Brou designated Types. Holotype male: USA, Louisiana, St.Tammany Parish, 4.2 miles (6.8 km) north-east of Abita Springs, section 24, Township 6, South Range 12 East, 19 May 1997. Allotype female: Same locality as holotype, 28 May 1997.
copy and paste from one of my 2002 publications about ilia vs umbrosa. "Catocala ilia (Cramer) appears not to have been previously recorded in the literature for Louisiana, although, this author has taken it there for the past 34 years. A highly variable species, eight names are listed in Barnes and McDunnough (1918) as forms of ilia , six alone by Worthington (1883), including umbrosa. Worthington published the name umbrosa in an infrasubspecific context, and it always has been treated as such in subsequent literature. However, for reasons discussed below, I consider umbrosa to be a distinct species rather than a form. I here elevate it to species status using the name Catocala umbrosa Brou 2002 following the ICZN's rules on authorship and date for formerly unavailable names (Art. 10.2, 45.5, 45.6, 50.3). In this way, I maintain a historical link to Worthington's description and studies of this underwing moth. A female lectotype for umbrosa was previously designated by Gall (1990), and this specimen is in the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University. The type locality (by Gall) is N[orthern] Ill[inois, USA], probably Cook County. Gall left umbrosa as a form of C. ilia at that time".
And now you know the rest of the story.
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Post by rayrard on Dec 19, 2021 10:22:12 GMT -8
Yes, the 2 Catocala in that 2018 link are ilia. I would think Larry would need them in hand to brush the abdomens to be 100% sure. Many of them are easy to tell from markings alone but there are some photos that cannot be identified. On iNaturalist, these should be placed in "ilia/umbrosa".
I have only encountered one umbrosa and untold hundreds of ilia. I would expect umbrosa tapping trees or baiting, but nope. It is truly rare in the northeast.
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Post by foxxdoc on Dec 21, 2021 9:45:58 GMT -8
appreciated your list of Cats. How about other lists. Sphingids ? Sats ? maybe your bugs that are strays ?
PS collected with you in Sarasota with Lep Soc at Allyn Museum in 70's.
BEST
TOM
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Post by vabrou on Dec 21, 2021 13:11:16 GMT -8
Regarding the sphingidae of Louisiana, I published two parts involving 30 consecutive years for the state of Lousiana, totaling 83,889 captured adults. Total trap hours expended during the 30 year investigation were in excess of 1.4 million hours, involving 491,000 ultraviolet light trap hours and 913,000 fermenting bait trap hours. Here are some (11) freely available web linkswww.academia.edu/232102/Distribution_and_Phenologies_of_Louisiana_Sphingidaewww.academia.edu/1021607/Addendum_to_Sphingidae_of_LouisianaI also published a much later second addendum with color imageswww.academia.edu/1509724/Second_addendum_to_the_Sphingidae_of_LouisianaI also elevated to species status Eumorpha intermediawww.academia.edu/29836827/New_Status_for_Eumorpha_intermedia_Sphingidae_I also described one of two new species from Louisiana, one is Lapara phaeobrachycerous Brou, a second new Lapara species has yet to be described. And I also described a new hawkmoth from Quintano Roo, Mexico, Manduca wellingi Brou www.academia.edu/20406819/A_new_species_of_Lapara_Sphingidae_from_southeastern_United_Stateswww.academia.edu/29896452/A_New_Hawkmoth_from_Quintana_Roo_MexicoI also published twice, one concerning documentation of 6,234 adults hawkmoths upon a 366 day phenogram captured during 1985 at the Abita Entomological Study Site. And a second publication documenting via time graphs, the hawkmoths captured every 6 minutes dusk to dawn over a few nights. www.academia.edu/45590721/Portrait_of_Sphingidae_flight_in_Louisianawww.academia.edu/29897421/Brief_observations_of_Sphingidae_flight_timeI also published a few brief rearing notes and color larval images concerning a few Louisiana Hawkmoths.www.academia.edu/28040000/Spotlight_on_rearing_Isoparce_cupressi_Bdv_in_Louisianawww.academia.edu/26351850/Spotlight_on_rearing_Darapsa_myron_Cramer_www.academia.edu/26351829/Spotlight_on_rearing_Amphion_floridensis_B_P_ClarkAnd that 1970s Florida collecting trip was a flub. Also, at this point (52 continuous years of light trapping), Charlotte and I have captured about 200,000 adult hawkmoths in Louisiana. And between 1969 and 1987 we accumulated a Collection of world Sphingidae (approx 40,000 specimens) 800+ species from 120 countries of the world. -- About 50,000 specimens of all these mentioned hawkmoths currently can be found in the McGuire Center for Lepidoptera in Gainesville, Florida.
Vernon Antoine Brou Jr.
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