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Post by Paul K on Sept 16, 2020 9:00:49 GMT -8
I see Chuck post the photo of P.canadensis and I just took a photo to show other members who might be interested to see the difference between P.canadensis and glaucus. Although P.glaucus was collected on 10 July it is almost certain that it is pure second generation of glaucus as neither canadensis nor MST don't occur near Long Point, Ontario ( north shore of Lake Erie ). P.canadesis was collected approx. 70km northwest of Kingston, Ontario.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 16, 2020 9:12:21 GMT -8
We don’t know the full distribution yet of MST, so it’s possible your specimen is MST. It certainly does look like glaucus. In Chris Schmidt’s publication, he puts questions marks along the north shore of Lake Erie regarding MST. There is a confirmed specimen of MST from Niagara using molecular markers. I suspect MST ranges more south into NY state.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 19, 2020 5:54:54 GMT -8
I have images of two more Finger Lakes specimens. I suspect that I know the ID our resident expert is going to assign. Since I don't want to influence any observations, I right now am not posting data. However, in a most frustrating fashion, if experts ID them as I expect it takes me right back to a conundrum in the first post. As always, click for larger image then click again for a very large image.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 19, 2020 9:31:54 GMT -8
Ah, I am by NO means an expert at this Chuck, and honestly, the MST has intermediate traits so its damn hard to separate it from anything else without data. Regardless, I will take a stab at it! Here is my opinion:
Specimen 1. FW ventral submarginal yellow band nearly solid, a canadensis trait. Size is intermediate but I would say a bit too large for canadensis. I can’t see the abdomen so unsure if male or female. Hindwing scalloping, submarginal lunules, anal black band, linearity of the submarginal blue bands are all somewhat intermediate. Based on this, I would say spring glaucus or MST. So here the collection date becomes the deciding factor, unless you raised it and also have pictures of the first instar. Glaucus first instars have 2 white patches but MST has a partial third.
Specimen 2. Looks like a male and wingspan is huge, so not canadensis. FW ventral submarginal yellow spots are separate. Hindwing shape, anal black band, yellow lunules are all good for glaucus. The blue is nearly straight but this can be variable. So here I would think 2nd generation glaucus.
How did I do? What are the data for these specimens?
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Sept 19, 2020 10:06:27 GMT -8
Now I have a few years on most of you, I have collected most of the South Shore of Lake Erie. My family (Especially my Grand Parents), had a long history on the Islands of Lake Erie. They had a fishing cottage on Put-in-Bay.
My younger son had a Charter Fishing business. During the winter he had Fishing Huts for Ice Fishing. He also repaired boats among other things.
I spent many summers on Put-In-Bay collecting Lepidotera. I collected Papilio cresphontes, and, Papilio glaucus. I have six (6)males and four (4) females plus a dark female from May and June and again in July and August.I have two pair plus four (4) dark females.
I also collected along the shores of Lake Erie east of Cleveland. I never collected or saw a Papilio cresphontes. I have numerours Papilio glaucus from late April to mid June. These were typically smaller than the summer brood which occured July and August. Ocasionally I would collect a few in early September. Including an occasional dark female.
All of these were Papilio glaucus and all had dark females. I acutally collected a single dark female on 5 September 2020 at Killdeer Plains WA while setting out Light Traps.
I have also collected in upper peninsula of Michigan Papilio glaucus in late May. These appeared to be smaller and I never encountered dark females.
The only way to solve this puzzle is to rear these creatures.
I have specimens that were given to me as Papilio canadensis. They look like May/June specimens Papilio glaucus.
My personal opinion, Papilio canadensis is a single brood of Papilio glaucus. That single brood is the result of a shorter photo period.(Shorter Summer Period) However, that is just my opinion. And opinions are like Rectal Orifices. Everybody had one.
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Post by Paul K on Sept 19, 2020 10:12:13 GMT -8
My guess was the same as Eurytides but I was waiting for an expert to made a first call
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Post by eurytides on Sept 19, 2020 10:12:15 GMT -8
I’m rearing a bunch as we speak. However, I disagree that canadensis and glaucus are the same species. The former is an obligate diapauser and the later is a facultative diapauser. They have different enzyme markers and plant detoxification capabilities. This is well established in the literature.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 19, 2020 10:21:28 GMT -8
Also, I don’t think there is any tiger swallowtail ID issue south of Lake Erie. The issue is in upstate NY.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 19, 2020 16:55:13 GMT -8
On canadensis: we must remember that the terms "species" and "subspecies" are made by man, not nature, and as such are imperfectly applied to the natural world. That said, so far as the definitions exist today, canadensis has been demonstrated to be a separate species based on genetics, hosts, and environmental constraints/ survivability.
The photos in my most recent post are dated June 2020 and August 2020. I have two observations to note (1) I too determined them to both be glaucus, spring and summer forms respectively and (2) in our area at least, the glaucus (such as those shown above) exhibit many canadensis-like features as opposed to those in PA, NJ, and south. In other words, grab a specimen from VA (even without knowing the capture location) and yep, no second look required, its glaucus. Those in the Finger Lakes may elicit contemplation and discussion, and requests for data.
Now the conundrum is thus: if those shown above are spring and summer glaucus, and the series of images I'd post previously are spring glaucus (minus one, being the ONLY record I have in any format), then where the heck were the summer form (i.e., July and August flights) up through circa 2000?
Really, "maybe you just didn't see them" doesn't cover 40 years of observation of species so common that it's seen regularly flying across the road. Nor can the summer form's presence be neglected in the field; I have hundreds of county records that aren't in BOMONA. And I've found strays, freaks, etc. And while my field work turned to AsPac for a couple decades, I was observant enough to catch the appearance of both cresphontes and a Tiger summer flight that didn't exist before. It had always been my thought that glaucus in the Finger Lakes was, despite claims, univoltine until circa 2000. So this is driving me nuts; upon learning about MST it conveniently solved that problem- but if the August flight is glaucus summer form not MST, then the problem still exists. Tearing my hair out!
Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Sept 19, 2020 17:22:52 GMT -8
Chuck, let’s take the data at face value then - whatever is flying in the summer wasn’t there before circa 2000. Whether its MST or glaucus, there has been a range or voltinism change. Either MST has extended to your region or glaucus now has two generations instead of one. One hypothesis is that this could be related to increasing temperatures in our region due to climate change. It is noteworthy that around the same time, we see a northward range extension of cresphontes. They used to be rare in Ontario and absent in Quebec. Now, they can be seen across southern and eastern Ontario, ranging into Quebec as far as at least Montreal. That’s hundreds of kilometres of range extension!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 20, 2020 3:14:58 GMT -8
I have images of two more Finger Lakes specimens. Unfortunately I cannot access any of the photos Chuck posted. lensdump.com sends an error message, but it's probably due to my old browser. Adam.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 20, 2020 6:36:11 GMT -8
Chuck, let’s take the data at face value then - whatever is flying in the summer wasn’t there before circa 2000. Whether its MST or glaucus, there has been a range or voltinism change. Either MST has extended to your region or glaucus now has two generations instead of one. One hypothesis is that this could be related to increasing temperatures in our region due to climate change. It is noteworthy that around the same time, we see a northward range extension of cresphontes. They used to be rare in Ontario and absent in Quebec. Now, they can be seen across southern and eastern Ontario, ranging into Quebec as far as at least Montreal. That’s hundreds of kilometres of range extension! You are, of course, right. What is, is. I wonder why what's been identified as spring form glaucus in the Finger Lakes looks much more like canadensis that it's brethren 200km south. I wonder, what IS the range of MST? If those specimens I've shown are not MST, it would be an interesting field study to locate MST in NY, mirroring the efforts of the Canadian researchers. It amazes me that the ubiquitous Tiger Swallowtail, identified to science by famed scientist Linnaeus in 1758, is still posing questions 262 years later! Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Sept 20, 2020 7:04:31 GMT -8
Chuck, let’s take the data at face value then - whatever is flying in the summer wasn’t there before circa 2000. Whether its MST or glaucus, there has been a range or voltinism change. Either MST has extended to your region or glaucus now has two generations instead of one. One hypothesis is that this could be related to increasing temperatures in our region due to climate change. It is noteworthy that around the same time, we see a northward range extension of cresphontes. They used to be rare in Ontario and absent in Quebec. Now, they can be seen across southern and eastern Ontario, ranging into Quebec as far as at least Montreal. That’s hundreds of kilometres of range extension! You are, of course, right. What is, is. I wonder why what's been identified as spring form glaucus in the Finger Lakes looks much more like canadensis that it's brethren 200km south. I wonder, what IS the range of MST? If those specimens I've shown are not MST, it would be an interesting field study to locate MST in NY, mirroring the efforts of the Canadian researchers. It amazes me that the ubiquitous Tiger Swallowtail, identified to science by famed scientist Linnaeus in 1758, is still posing questions 262 years later! Chuck I’m not sure what the answer is, but it has been known for some time that northern glaucus has a spring form that looks a bit like canadensis. I am unsure if this is solely related to temperature. I think Mark Scriber has looked at this - taking southern pupae and overwintering them up north to see what the spring specimens look like - but I do not remember the results off hand nor am I certain Mark has investigated this. I just have a feeling I read about this somewhere years ago. MST is known from the Batten Kill region in NY, but I am uncertain about its range in NY. I don’t think anyone does. Not totally surprised we are still learning about tiger swallowtails. Just look at how recently appalachiensis was described. It wasn’t from some remote location either! It was only a few years ago that Papilio rumiko was described!
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Post by Paul K on Sept 20, 2020 7:36:43 GMT -8
I believe there are thousands of cryptic species yet to be discover especially in the tropics where early stages of many species are still unknown and DNA samples are still have to be done.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 20, 2020 7:41:09 GMT -8
I believe there are thousands of cryptic species yet to be discover especially in the tropics where early stages of many species are still unknown and DNA samples are still have to be done. That is without a doubt. That's why I love field work in the South Pacific jungles. Always something new turning up. But you have to admit, it's rather ironic (and scientifically humbling) to find out NOW that there's an unrecognized Tiger swallowtail in the most populated part of Canada and USA.
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