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Post by Paul K on Aug 28, 2020 5:11:25 GMT -8
We don’t have black female form here either. The mimetic gene must be missing as there is nothing to mimic as B.philenor does not occur here. Perhaps the same scenario is around finger lakes as you mentioned that you haven’t seen philenor there also.
It would be interesting to know how long ago glaucus and canadensis diverged. If that was before last ice age or after. Maybe Adam knows some details on that subject and could add some here.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 28, 2020 6:43:01 GMT -8
I found this on the black females: "In butterflies, the sex chromosomes are the opposite of those in mammals. Female butterflies are the heterogametic sex (XY), and males are homogametic (XX). Yellow Papilio glaucus females give birth to yellow females, and dark females give birth to dark females indicating that the gene for color is on the Y chromosome (Scriber et al.1995)."
Given that, with no Battus philenor in the area, natural selection / mimicry would provide no benefit to black female glaucus. That said, it doesn't explain why they are all yellow in the northern reaches; perhaps in the absence of philenor, yellow is the better color.
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Post by Paul K on Aug 28, 2020 12:00:52 GMT -8
P.troilus also mimics B.philenor but in that case both sexes are mimics. Perhaps P.glaucus is now in the first stage of evolution to be come all black too in thousands of years. Northern population will stay all yellow and become different subspecies,
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 28, 2020 15:08:09 GMT -8
P.troilus also mimics B.philenor but in that case both sexes are mimics. Perhaps P.glaucus is now in the first stage of evolution to be come all black too in thousands of years. Northern population will stay all yellow and become different subspecies, If I’m around I’ll let you know!
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Post by eurytides on Aug 28, 2020 19:05:38 GMT -8
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 29, 2020 6:24:05 GMT -8
That is a great read! Note the comment that photos alone have historically been deficient, though improving- a case for taking and curating specimens and data.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 29, 2020 9:59:11 GMT -8
And thus the lack of reliable historical data.
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Post by eurytides on Aug 29, 2020 13:14:00 GMT -8
The article Christian Schmidt references is actually something I wrote a couple of years ago. It’s a fascinating topic and I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns out to be a new taxon much like appalachiensis. I am raising 9 of these right now, mostly found as ova or 1st instar larvae this July. I will then have a series of 12 all with rearing and emergence data. They definitely take longer to break diapause compared to canadensis.
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Post by Paul K on Aug 29, 2020 13:18:06 GMT -8
The article Christian Schmidt references is actually something I wrote a couple of years ago. It’s a fascinating topic and I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns out to be a new taxa much like appalachiensis. I am raising 9 of these right now, mostly found as ova or 1st instar larvae this July. I will then have a series of 12 all with rearing and emergence data. They definitely take longer to break diapause compared to canadensis. Are there any differences in early stages between those three? I mean the midsummer specimens and other two.
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Post by eurytides on Aug 29, 2020 13:23:52 GMT -8
Yup, google the article I wrote.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 29, 2020 16:02:22 GMT -8
Looks like I opened a can of worms that’s bigger than I ever imagined. I see many hours of work in my future. Ugh.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 31, 2020 4:19:18 GMT -8
I'm finding all of this very interesting. From about 100,000 years ago until less than 18,000 years ago, various extreme cooling (and warming) events covered much of what is not occupied by Papilio canadensis. The latest, less than 18,000 years ago, was the Laurentide Ice Sheet: Of interest to reference, a study of Hemileuca maia (https://bioone.org/journals/The-Journal-of-the-Lepidopterists-Society/volume-74/issue-1/lepi.74i1.a3/An-Interpretation-of-the-Impact-of-the-Wisconsin-Glaciation-on/10.18473/lepi.74i1.a3.short) repatriation following the Wisconsin ice sheet indicates that the moth spread northward with warming, following the expansion of foodplants. One would think this is immediately applicable to Papilio as well. Now, one of the studies indicated that canadensis and glaucus split roughly 400,000 years ago. My question then, is where did they go during the Laurentide period? Presumably, canadensis and glaucus would have been pushed south, with range overlap compressing (perhaps the advent of appalachiensis?). Also I presume that canadensis could have been limited to the foodplants of higher elevations (e.g., Appalachian mountains) but that, at the time, would have been a very restricted range. Then, when the ice retreats, canadensis (repeatedly) re-populates northward, ahead of glaucus. I dunno. It strikes me as odd (unlikely?) that two species, one of which is less capable of survival in southern climates, could be pushed south, and bounce back, with ranges relatively respected and without significant interbreeding. As Eurytides inferred (or stated, if I read correctly) there is a zone where both species occur, and indeed do interbreed. I suppose a further examination of specimens from that zone may shed some more light (or, perhaps, it's already been done.) Chuck
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Post by Paul K on Aug 31, 2020 4:48:03 GMT -8
I think most of insect fauna was pushed to far south ( Texas, Florida ) This mass of ice effected most of the continent being cold or very cold similar to today’s tundra and taiga. Cooling and warming take thousands of years so I suppose as you mentioned P.glaucus was inhabiting southern parts and canadensis north of glaucus zone.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 31, 2020 18:11:14 GMT -8
Saw one tiger yesterday in Cayuga Co, and one today in Ontario Co. both missing substantial area of the hindwings. Today’s flew into a Poplar tree and sat, came out for 30 seconds and back on the tree. I could not observe what it was doing.
Returned to the clover field that was very active a month ago. Still 30% flowering. No tigers. Oddly did see a fresh male polyxenes. Stunning bright red monarchs are abundant
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 4, 2020 6:27:24 GMT -8
For matter of record, yesterday (03 Sept) I returned to the field of yellow cup-leaf flowers (Aster), where I'd observed many Papilio glaucus. Over the course of ten minutes, I saw none. Neither have I seen glaucus anywhere during the early days of September. Presumably they are done.
Also notable, I returned to a field where I'd observed Speyeria Cybele only last week; here too- no Tigers, no cybele.
P tharos, C philodice, C eurytheme (male), and monarchs continue to fly. I did see one Papilio, either polyxenes or troilus, yesterday.
But in all it looks like the season for butterflies is about wrapped up.
Chuck
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