|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 28, 2020 12:56:40 GMT -8
With some great assistance (technical advice) from mothman27 (regarding the posting of pictures); I am now able to show some of my goods and pose any related questions regarding them. *So, a big THANK YOU Tim (mothman27) for your wise advise ! Below, is a picture of two Catocala which I would like some candid (Identifications/opinions) about. I was told by one collector the top one is C. meiskei; however, yet another collector said it looked more to him like C. junctura So, which species is this one ? Also, the bottom dark specimen was said to be C. insolabilis; is this one a correct I.D. ? Any differing opinions ? *Author's Note: Species (determinations) are courtesy of *rayrard and *billgarthe >Top: Catocala junctura / Joined Underwing (courtesy *rayrard) >Bottom: Catocala insolibilis / Inconsolable Underwing (courtesy of *billgarthe and *rayrard)
|
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 28, 2020 13:04:35 GMT -8
Here I have two specimens which I picked up a couple years back. Could these be C. junctura or something else ? Again, looking for a determination on these two specimens. (Illinois, Kane Co.) *Author's Note: Species (determination) is courtesy of *rayrard >Both specimens: Catocala junctura / Joined Underwing
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 28, 2020 13:17:20 GMT -8
Lastly, I have this photograph of a fine series of Catocala which I only recently collected. Are these all C. junctura or something else ? "Men of the net" unite; I need some opinions please... By the way, some of my specimens are spread in the old "English style" of preparation whereby their forelegs are preened out in front of them for a more "dramatic" appearance. Those long hind legs are of coarse "trailing behind in the wind". A nice differing look from the standard of tucking the legs in. *Author's Note: Species (determination) is courtesy of *rayrard >The hindwing bands all look like Catocala junctura / Joined Underwing
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2020 17:46:07 GMT -8
Ok.....someone asked me to share my ID points for the pinks in question. I used general specimens, not variations or forms for my basic IDing. I know I’m opening myself up to criticism and differing opinions, but these are my best general guidelines I use to determine these four. Be kind....... Also, the Bill Oehlke site for NA Catocalas can be of great help along with da books. Btw.....yes, that was insolabilis posted earlier by Trehopr1.
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 28, 2020 19:30:10 GMT -8
Now I think that is an EXCELLENT general guide for discerning these 4 species which I brought up. It is well thought out and covers the subtleties present between the species. I think you really "nailed it" Bill and I am sure it will serve many who (like me) have found these species at times perplexing !
So, it looks to me like my 2nd photograph and 3rd photograph (series) appear to all be C. junctura
Is this correct in your opinion Billg ?
What about #1 photo (the pink one). Also another C. junctura ?
THANK YOU also Bill for confirming that C. insolabilis !!
**Wondering if maybe we should have a thread dedicated to "Catocala I.D's". Folks could post their (undet.) specimen pic's and members could give their opinions. That way this thread could remain just for Catocala field reports 2020. Maybe Adam could do this for us...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2020 22:14:47 GMT -8
Hey all, Can’t say enough good abt this Catocala of the World Book. It has great plates for ID of worldwide Cats and the NA section is very thorough. My autographed copy is invaluable for USA IDs. For example, it has pics of various forms of Cats.....the junctura plates are superb and there are 8 or 9 pics of that variable moth. It has become my go to’ reference for identification. It has limited text w awesome pics/plates and it was not too costly either. You won’t be disappointed.
|
|
|
|
Post by rayrard on Aug 30, 2020 15:34:40 GMT -8
Since we are on the topic, perhaps you could offer an opinion on these. I initially though I had a meskei in my collection but I now think they are all junctura. Let me know if you would agree. The interesting thing is that they are all from different places. Also, as you can tell they are different sizes. Data: Top: Allen County, Indiana 2nd: Boulder County, Colorado, USA 3rd: Steuben County, Indiana, USA Bottom: LaSalle County, Illinois, USA And now for the daily report, I got one habilis and one maestosa today and a female Manduca sexta, all at the sheet, none in the traps. I think the MidWest ones are junctura but the Colorado one is faustina
|
|
|
Post by rayrard on Aug 30, 2020 15:37:20 GMT -8
With some great assistance (technical advice) from mothman27 (regarding the posting of pictures); I am now able to show some of my goods and pose any related questions regarding them. *So, a big THANK YOU Tim (mothman27) for your wise advise ! Below, is a picture of two Catocala which I would like some candid (Identifications/opinions) about. I was told by one collector the top one is C. meiskei; however, yet another collector said it looked more to him like C. junctura So, which species is this one ? Also, the bottom dark specimen was said to be C. insolabilis; is this one a correct I.D. ? Any differing opinions ? Without looking at other replies, I would say junctura for the orange one and certainly yes to insolabilis which is quite distinctive in size and color
|
|
|
Post by rayrard on Aug 30, 2020 15:45:28 GMT -8
Now I think that is an EXCELLENT general guide for discerning these 4 species which I brought up. It is well thought out and covers the subtleties present between the species. I think you really "nailed it" Bill and I am sure it will serve many who (like me) have found these species at times perplexing ! So, it looks to me like my 2nd photograph and 3rd photograph (series) appear to all be C. junctura Is this correct in your opinion Billg ? What about #1 photo (the pink one). Also another C. junctura ? THANK YOU also Bill for confirming that C. insolabilis !! **Wondering if maybe we should have a thread dedicated to "Catocala I.D's". Folks could post their (undet.) specimen pic's and members could give their opinions. That way this thread could remain just for Catocala field reports 2020. Maybe Adam could do this for us... The hindwing bands all look like junctura. I have noted meskei from the northeast are noticeably less mottled than unijuga but are very close. The white ST squiggly line is MUCH more apparent in unijuga while in meskei it blends in especially at a distance. The hindwing band is thicker in unijuga with the orange area being thinner than the median band. In meskei the orange is more expansive and is thicker than the black median band. The shape of the median bands is a little different. I have found unijuga and meskei to be very close in size and color. I have never collected junctura but that species never is found in the northeast. Separating semirelicta from unijuga/meskei is hard and I don't know how to separate gray semirelicta from the other two. It doesn't help that I've never seen semirelicta either
|
|
|
Post by rayrard on Aug 30, 2020 15:47:23 GMT -8
Well, this is indeed a good example of the dilemma I come across with 3-4 of these large salmon colored species. Your specimens Tim look just like some which I have as well. I had one collector say o'h that's C. meiskei and yet another collector said on another occasion o'h that's C. junctura. Then someone else will likely come along and say o'h that's C. unijuga. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone really knows how to tell these apart except the noted expert Larry Gall. I work 20 feet from Larry so I'm learning
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 30, 2020 19:16:55 GMT -8
THANK YOU very much indeed rayrard for your species confirmations of my posted photo's !
My sincere respect for being mentored by Larry Gall himself. You have mentioned in the past that you have collected Catocala with him numerous times so, it seems you are THE go to guy for Catocala on this forum. I will post a few more pic's of some questionable specimens so, hopefully your well rounded knowledge/experience of these moths will assist with these tough ones (for me) that I have.
I met Larry Gall twice. Very pleasant and helpful in every way. Met him in the early 1990's in Chicago whilst working at Field Museum as a Technical Assistant (Div. of Insects). He visited our Division to look over the Hermann Strecker (types) of Catocala. Within a year or so a printed bulletin of his confirmations/investigation was printed. I have a copy somewhere on my book shelves. Also, met him a second time at a big Lep. Soc. meeting in Eureka Ill. but, I've forgotten what year that was.
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 30, 2020 21:53:11 GMT -8
The next 3 photo's I post are three rather distinct looking (black) Catocala. Now, there are truly some distinct black species one really cannot mistake for anything else. However, there are some "puzzlers" like these which I cannot quite place an accurate determination on. Anyone with any ideas or proposals or just plain certainty; please reply... *Author's Note: Species (determination) is courtesy of *billgarthe and *rayrard >Catocala residua / Residua Underwing Photo A: This one has the unmistakable dark fringe at the outer edges of the hind wings. My best idea here is Catocala residua ?
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 30, 2020 21:56:40 GMT -8
Here's Photo B: *Author's Note: Species (determination) is courtesy of *billgarthe and *rayrard >Catocala angusi (unmarked form) / Angus Underwing I was told by another collector this is Catocala angusi. What do you fella's think?
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Aug 30, 2020 22:02:20 GMT -8
Lastly, for now here is Photo C: No ideas about species on this one... *Author's Note: Species (determination) is courtesy of *billgarthe and *rayrard >Catocala flebilis / Mourning Underwing My sincere THANK YOU to anyone and all (Men of the net); for any species determinations you can forward on these three.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2020 23:36:42 GMT -8
IMHO..........and I’m no expert even after fifty years of collecting Cats, you have the following.
A. residua B. angusi C. flebilis
My reasons for saying flebilis and not angusi (form lucetta) are many as they are similar in appearance.
flebilis Has well defined HW white fringe angusi Has less well defined HW white fringe
flebilis FW has more pronounced basal dash, then blk streak angusi FW has less defined basal dash more blended into blk streak flebilis FW has lightened post basal to costa spot that gets nearly ............wht at bodyside of reniform spot angusi FW has no distinct light colored spot from costa to reniform spot
flebilis FW blk streak near apex is gradually upward. angusi FW blk streak near apex is angled near tip
flebilis FW has lightened patch half way down submarginal band. angusi FW has only a hint of a light patch half way down submarginal band
flebilis FW has distinct post median bar from costa to blk streak. angusi FW has a suggestion of a post median bar from costa to blk streak
flebilis FW has larger brown reniform spot. angusi FW has smaller reniform spot
flebilis FW has post basal blk squiggly line from costa to blk streak angusi FW has no post basal blk squiggly line from costa to blk streak Others out there may disagree, but that’s my take on it.
|
|