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Post by beetlehorn on Jun 12, 2018 11:11:59 GMT -8
I have heard of using cyanide as a killing agent in kill jars, but it is considered dangerous. This poison is also difficult to obtain. I have never used it, and only have experience with ethyl actetate, so I don't know if it is more humane. Ethyl acetate usually kills with a few seconds when freshly charged, but sometimes it takes longer than what I consider humane. I have also injected insects with alcohol, and it seems to be the most humane method because it kills almost instantly. Small or fragile insects are difficult to inject without damaging them, so I am forced to use the killing jar. Quickly dispatching a specimen also aids in keeping them from getting damaged, as most collectors would agree. If anyone has a better method, I would be very interested.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 12:18:04 GMT -8
I mostly collect on my property so specimens immediately go into the freezer. The cold shocks them and renders them immobile to prevent damage and the cold dispatches them quickly. For remote collecting I use a small cooler filled with ice. No needles or chemicals.
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Post by africaone on Jun 12, 2018 12:47:43 GMT -8
ethyl acetate has been considered not dangerous for human (normal use) by the Belgian Institute of Natural Science. I use it for many years without problem except for my glasses (be careful as the actual glasses are platic made no more glass made)
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Post by mothman27 on Jun 12, 2018 13:27:07 GMT -8
I mostly collect on my property so specimens immediately go into the freezer. The cold shocks them and renders them immobile to prevent damage and the cold dispatches them quickly. For remote collecting I use a small cooler filled with ice. No needles or chemicals. I used to do this but I found that especially for noctuids, their wings will be more difficult to spread after being frozen than if they are killed with E. acetate. They seem just as if they were live and the wings are very pliable.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 12, 2018 13:44:25 GMT -8
I use Ethyl Acetate in my Light Trap. Knocks down and kills quickly.
When in the field with net in hand or checking traps (Bait Traps & Pheromone Traps), I use killing jars with potassium cyanide. Cyanide kills quickly and is extremely effective.
I tape jars to prevent them from breaking apart. I am extremely aware how deadly the jars can be to me, my family and fellow collectors. I acquired a quantity many years ago and it will last me another 20+ years.
With Cyanide you can only make one mistake and that mistake in usually fatal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 13:46:39 GMT -8
Mothman,
Catocala are the same way. After being frozen they are usually stiff. Nothing that a trip to the relaxing box won't fix
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 12, 2018 15:59:02 GMT -8
Whenever you freeze Lepidoptera, they will dry out. Even an overnight stay in the freezer can dry them enough to be difficult to spread.
Almost all freezers are "frost free". Less than 1% moisture.
I have two freezers, one is full the other is about 75% full. Mostly moths. I spread about 50 moths a day. This past winter I spread labeled and placed into my collection a little over 2200 specimens. The colder the winter the more I get spread and into my collection. As a result I add about 10 to 20 drawers a year. I will acquire two more 25 drawer cabinets this fall plus 50 drawers. As I get older, I am 73 and in good health, I will spread more and collect less. Most of what is in my freezer is western material. Including three trips to SE Arizona.
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Post by trehopr1 on Jun 12, 2018 18:13:04 GMT -8
I find Ethyl Acetate the best all around safe agent to use. It has quick knockdown for all leps thus preventing wing damage. It also kills rather quick as well -- as far as leps go. It does take considerably longer to knock down and kill hardier things like Coleoptera and Hymenoptera. With these, it's probably not the ideal agent to use (from the humane perspective). Freezing is probably best and more humane on those 2 orders as the cold simply slows the insects metabolism down until death. The caveat however, is that Hymenoptera will likely "curl" into a tight ball and be virtually un-mountable due to the musculature contracting in the cold. Coleoptera usually wind up on their backs so as they freeze their legs all tend to point straight up (again to the muscles contracting); therefore, relaxing them can be very difficult in getting their legs to plane out nicely again in a natural stance. So, in short though E. acetate may not be as "humane" to orders of hardy insects; the results (in preparing up the material) are far better. Cyanide is a product of a bygone time and era. I cannot believe collectors prior to the 70's used it commonly in their kill jars. I got one once and used it for 2 summers (and the bottom half of the jar was taped ) but, I was deathly afraid of ever dropping it so I buried it deep in a hole I dug at the end of that 2nd summer and immediately switched to using E. acetate from then on. I will say however, it killed EVERYTHING across the board in seconds. Injecting large Saturniids, Sphingids is humane and does the trick instantly and humanely but, is not really for leps much smaller as trying to handle smaller things to inject them will likely result in wing mars occurring .
I must say I cannot believe some of you fellows actually freeze your fresh caught Catocala vs. putting them in an E. acetate kill bottle first to knock em' down. No freezer works that quickly ; so by the time your moth flips on it's back and finally freezes all it seems you would have is a collection full of "baldies" or (moths without hair on their thorax).
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Post by leptraps on Jun 13, 2018 3:21:49 GMT -8
I do not use the freezer to kill,Lepidoptera. I use the freezer to store specimens that I have collected and killed. They are much easier to rehydrate than papered specimen that are dried.
As I have said previously, I use killing jars with Potassium Cyanide. I use Ethyl Acetate in my Light Traps.
I have a great deal of respect for both.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 4:20:49 GMT -8
I haven't had a Catocala ever "scalp" it's thoracic hair by putting it in the freezer or in a cooler. This is why I won't net one. I have had them damaged by netting. I just use a small jar. It causes a higher level of misses but at least they don't get damaged. The moth with the dreaded orange spot on its back gets to fly again.
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Post by Paul K on Jun 13, 2018 6:02:14 GMT -8
This is a common mistake we humans compare insects to us, mammals and other higher forms of life. Insects don’t feel the pain, they have no emotions nor consciousness. At least that is the science for today. They are pre-programmed organism and they are not aware of dying in the killing jar, so it doesn’t really matter how long and what is the method of dispatching them in terms of humane way. But I do agree that I and I believe most of us feel uncomfortable when we watch the insect trying to escape jar too long and that is because WE have feelings, emotions and consciousness. Did I just get to the point where I started this post? 🤔
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Post by luehdorf on Jun 13, 2018 22:26:38 GMT -8
Completely agree with Paul. But in order to curb our own emotions, I would also think about the alternatives: butterflies are at the bottom of the food chain, most likely they will be eaten by birds, bats, spiders or other insects. Compared to such a death dying quickly in a killing jar, is probably more “humane” than being injected with spider poison and eaten alive while the the intestines slowly dissolve.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 5:22:34 GMT -8
Not to mention the unlucky caterpillar that gets to be a snack for the parasitic wasp larvae.
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Post by jshuey on Jun 14, 2018 6:00:20 GMT -8
This is a common mistake we humans compare insects to us, mammals and other higher forms of life. Insects don’t feel the pain, they have no emotions nor consciousness. At least that is the science for today. They are pre-programmed organism and they are not aware of dying in the killing jar, so it doesn’t really matter how long and what is the method of dispatching them in terms of humane way. But I do agree that I and I believe most of us feel uncomfortable when we watch the insect trying to escape jar too long and that is because WE have feelings, emotions and consciousness. Did I just get to the point where I started this post? 🤔 I suppose that how the lions used to think about the issue as they munched on early humans... Just pre-programed food - right? Chewy on the outside / crunchy on the inside... The reality is - we can never know how nerve transmissions are interpreted within another organism's brain. Claiming that we "know" that they are unaware is classic anthropomorphism at its finest. We've known for over 40 years that at least some long-lived insects can "learn" and "remember new information for several days" as well as communicate novel information to other individuals (who can understand said communications...). But I've never seen any research that examined potential emotional states in insects (yet). Acting as the "devil's advocate", john
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 12:54:39 GMT -8
I have experienced the emotional state of anger by yellow jackets when I run over their nest hole with the lawnmower by accident more than once. They expressed this emotional state of anger in a very graphical way by stinging me multiple times in multiple places.
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