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Post by joee30 on Dec 10, 2015 20:54:16 GMT -8
Nothing wrong to collect same species from different locations, or for variations. If you collect more for profit. That is wrong. If you rear them, nothing wrong with that.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 19, 2015 20:30:28 GMT -8
For 46 years, I have collected hundreds of billions of insects here on my rural home property using my inventory of 400+ insect traps, and I often have 10 or more Cornell drawers of expertly pinned, spread, labeled, and determined specimens of the same e.g., moth or beetle or other insect species. I collect primarily for the scientific knowledge gained that no one else has ever researched or previously documented or published upon. At this location, my automatically operated traps have collected 24-hrs daily and continuously for the past 33 years year round. I know facts about insect distribution and abundance that no other person knows about or is aware of, and I have published about some of many of my findings concerning this tremendous collecting effort in over 325 publications to date. I am unaware of making any species of insect extinct performing this research. One would assume that I am decimating my local populations. That assumption is baseless, why, because there is no study to prove such devastation has occurred. In fact, in some cases, I have documented quite the opposite occurring over decades of daily records. This research has resulted in the discovery of well over 400 new species of previously unknown moths, and untold new species of other insect families. I do not place specimens upon walls in Riker mounts or other types of display cases to look at pretty, or colorful, or unusual specimens. I personally feel that doing such is a waste of valuable specimens and those who do these displays are doing a disservice to certain gaudy and colorful insect populations.
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Post by cabintom on Dec 20, 2015 3:15:56 GMT -8
I often have 10 or more Cornell drawers of expertly pinned, spread, labeled, and determined specimens of the same e.g., moth or beetle or other insect species. As a lay-man myself, I'm curious as to what benefit is granted by having so many drawers of the same species? Are you looking for morphological changes over time?
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Post by vabrou on Dec 20, 2015 5:41:57 GMT -8
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Post by cabintom on Dec 20, 2015 14:44:15 GMT -8
For 46 years, I have collected hundreds of billions of insects here on my rural home property using my inventory of 400+ insect traps, and I often have 10 or more Cornell drawers of expertly pinned, spread, labeled, and determined specimens of the same e.g., moth or beetle or other insect species. I collect primarily for the scientific knowledge gained that no one else has ever researched or previously documented or published upon. At this location, my automatically operated traps have collected 24-hrs daily and continuously for the past 33 years year round. A few questions to help me wrap my head around the numbers you're throwing out here. Your collecting is quite incredibly proliferate! How many insects are you spreading on a daily basis? How do you process the 12+ million insects you're collecting every day? (and I'm assuming this is a low estimate of the number, given that "hundreds of billions" could be a lot more than 200 000 000 000, and that you've been running the light traps for only 33 of the past 46 years.) I assume the vast majority of that is catch & release, am I correct? Do you employ any staff? In regards to your last post, unfortunately my internet here is terrible and I was unable to download any of those pdfs since that website is awfully slow to load. I was quite interested to see some of the results of your work.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 20, 2015 16:07:48 GMT -8
Cabintom, I typically only spread 100 or less examples from my daily collections (keeping only the rarest, best quality, and most scientifically valuable specimens). My wife assist me in accomplishing all of these daily issues. And I have run traps for 46 years in Louisiana, 33 years here at my current home property. I have taken on my best 24-hour collecting period about 34,000,000 insects. Did I count them all, no that is an estimated figure based upon analysis of the weight of specimens. We collect here 366 days each and every year, regardless of storms, rain, winds, hurricanes, or temperature. No, none of my collected specimens are released, difficult to do that in automatic collecting devices using cyanide. Sorry to say I discard 99.99999% of my captures. one would think I would have wiped out the insect fauna here at my location, but nothing can be more from the truth. Don't bother criticizing me for my methods, I've heard it all. Move on. We have published 325 entomological related investigations during my lifetime involving thousands of insect species, especially moths. Many of my publications can be freely accessed as pdfs at these two links: www.lsuinsects.org/people/vernonbrou/index.html independent.academia.edu/VernonAntoineBrouJr Many of my publications are condensed to 1-5 pages using computer spreadsheets and maps, but may represent 30 years of collections data on the particular species I am reporting upon. Our biggest investigation involved the Sphingidae of Louisiana, a 30 consecutive year study, covered the years (1970-1999) in which we reported capturing 83,889 Sphingidae specimens representing 46 species within the state of Louisiana. And that study resulted in the discovery of two new Louisiana sphingid species. At this point, we have officially donated in excess of 343,238 Louisiana insects to museums in the United States alone. Our specimens can be found in these museums: Louisiana State Arthropod Museum (LSAM), Florida State Collection of Arthropods (FSCA), American Museum of Natural History(AMNH), National Museum of Natural History (NMNH/Smithsonian), Los Angeles County Museum (LACM), McGuire Center for Lepidoptera and Biodiversity, Carnegie Museum, Prague Museum, Canadian National Collection (CNC), The Natural History Museum-London, and others worldwide.. We have also provided additional hundreds of thousands of Louisiana insects to scientific collectors and researchers and to other museums throughout the world. Our current personal scientific research collection of Louisiana insects contains an additional 350,000 specimens (primarily lepidoptera, and some coleoptera).
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Post by Paul K on Dec 20, 2015 20:02:22 GMT -8
Vabrou said: "I do not place specimens upon walls in Riker mounts or other types of display cases to look at pretty, or colorful, or unusual specimens. I personally feel that doing such is a waste of valuable specimens and those who do these displays are doing a disservice to certain gaudy and colorful insect populations."
I don't see anything wrong to have enjoy some beautiful insects on the wall if someone likes it and I don't see the point to criticize this. You like to kill kilograms of insects every night with no respect for live to proof that someone was right or wrong in some "scientific research", some others like to collect few insects to cherish a beauty of nature.
Paul
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Post by cabintom on Dec 20, 2015 21:15:17 GMT -8
Cabintom, I typically only spread 100 or less examples from my daily collections (keeping only the rarest, best quality, and most scientifically valuable specimens). My wife assist me in accomplishing all of these daily issues. And I have run traps for 46 years in Louisiana, 33 years here at my current home property. I have taken on my best 24-hour collecting period about 34,000,000 insects. Did I count them all, no that is an estimated figure based upon analysis of the weight of specimens. How do you both find enough time in one day? I mean sorting through 400+ traps of captures every day must take many hours (or are not all the traps employed at once?)... and, at least for me, I might be able to spread 10 specimens in an hour... though I guess with some more practice I might be able to double that, though I'd be concerned with the quality of the results... and then there's the time required for affixing labels, placing in drawers, etc.
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Post by boghaunter1 on Dec 20, 2015 22:42:31 GMT -8
Hi Cabin Tom,
I'm completely flabbergasted by the wanton wholesale slaughter of millions of insects that this guy justifies as scientific research. I have never met any other collector in my life who can justify filling 10 Cornell drawers with a single sp.. I have had a running feud, for the past 2 days, with this blow hard character over his methods... see pg 8 in the catocala thread for his condescending attitude to other amateur collectors (he absolutely despises me now because I criticized him on having to have such complex x-mas tree like lighting setups. It is impossible to reason with him as he is a self proclaimed expert on all things related to light trapping & moth collecting. Don't even dare to disagree or openly criticize him because he is always right & we less experienced collectors are wannabe xpurts or the low order cooks in the kitchen who shouldn't even be evcollecting unless we are up to his high academic standards. And I thought Mr. T. From G, who was banned from these forums a few yrs ago was conceited. Just a heads up...he has repeatedly already called me wannabe xpurt & an asshole for criticizing him... some expurt indeed!
John K.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 21, 2015 6:01:08 GMT -8
Don't know who you are or anything about you, never heard of you until your nonsensical and inconsequential tirade began yesterday. Clearly you have a some sort of psychiatric problem, a deficit in education, and a real deficit in reading comprehension.
"he has repeatedly already called me wannabe xpurt & an asshole for criticizing him" Never once have I called you anything. You are an uncelebrated enigma as far as I am concerned. You read my generalized statements and all by yourself in your mind assumed these words describe you. Tell me, are you writing a script for a 'reality TV soap opera'? I am not responsible for your mental status. And now you try to incite others to join you in your personal attacks and criticisms. What authority entitles you to control what other say or do ? Neither this or anywhere for that matter is an appropriate forum for such insidious and personal attacks. Apparently, you don't realize that all the feckless criticisms you make about my persona are perceived by other readers as actually describing you, yourself.
"he absolutely despises me now..." -- give me a break, are you on psychotropic medications ? Are you claiming to have the psychic ability to know what I think about you ?
Don't understand what I am doing, that perfectly fine ? Go about your own business. Paramount among the obvious issues you perceive that are intensely irritating to you concern as you put it are my "complex x-mas tree like lighting setups" vs your "wee little 18" BLs" I made no such comparisons; this issue and words are your attempt to disparage me personally, and originate and exists solely in your mind. In your blind rage, you apparently have not noticed, but I too, have incorporated those "wee little 18" BLs" on the majority of my light trap designs. They are an integral component in the design, and successful operation of my light trap designs. I have sold my custom designed light traps to collectors in 16 states and three foreign countries (about 60 units). And a good number of those persons have subsequently purchased 2-3 additional traps, they were so pleased with the results they had with the initial trap.
How about knocking off your nugatory attacks on me, they are invidious. I don't intend to reply to anymore of your nonsense. Though, I'm fairly sure, you won't be able to control yourself. To what end are your pernicious criticisms ? Do you think your opinions will change the mind and actions of a person who has collected and researched insects for 60 years ?
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Post by vabrou on Dec 21, 2015 8:54:57 GMT -8
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Post by cabintom on Dec 21, 2015 9:31:00 GMT -8
Whoa, things are getting a bit out of hand here...
First of all, thank you John for your interjection. Although it wasn't particularly needed, I do appreciate that you were wanting to be helpful.
Secondly, Mr. Brou, the quality of your specimen processing has not been in doubt, it's the process itself that I'm curious about, as such, I hope that you would accept to answer a few more questions (I am often short on time and am wondering how I might do things more efficiently)...
Are you emptying each of the traps on a daily basis? Or are your daily hauls just averages from over a period of days? And how long does it take you to sort through what has been captured in each trap? I assume that with your expertise and experience you can easily spot the more important specimens, but I imagine that still takes time given that there would be (on average) over 30 000 insects in each trap. And, lastly, do you have any advice for quickly but properly setting specimens? It seems to take me around 10 minutes to spread a butterfly or moth, but the quality is not always where I would like it to be (and definitely not there if I do go anymore quickly). Are you able to spread your specimens more quickly than this and still maintain the quality? Or do you find it wiser and necessary to take a bit more time?
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Post by vabrou on Dec 21, 2015 9:56:54 GMT -8
Yes that is a possibility to give you a few pointers to get more accomplished. But at this very moment I need to get out to my traps ahead of several days of predicted rain, and I have several containers of larvae to put out in sleeves today. Here is the most useful basic method I use to quickly spread specimens, the use of numerous relaxing containers using chlorocresol. I place all of the freshly collected and dispatched selected specimens I capture into these relaxing chambers while waiting to spread them. Consequently the specimens are soft and pliable just like you captured it two minutes ago. This saves on spreading time. Frankly if you spend more than one minute per specimen pinning them and labeling, then you can improve this. I sorted my captured material every single day for most of the past 46 years, consequently the collection chambers allow the captured specimens to remain soft and fresh. I do not sit out in front of a sheet with jars. I once used a sheet, that was in 1969, never again. In front of a sheet, one never sees about 1/3 of the species that come to the light, not so with a automatic collecting device. Here are instructions for how to make one of my relaxing chambers. Also, over the decades, I have published numerous articles on how to build your own drawers, specimen cabinets, bait traps, and other useful entomological 'how to' instructions.
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Post by boghaunter1 on Dec 21, 2015 19:58:55 GMT -8
Open Comments on Brou's Excessive specimens Collecting/Collection - This WHOLEHOG COLLECTOR is ruining the image/future for all of us Collectors...
I absolutely can't help myself... if other collectors out there reading this think I was angry with Brou over his condescending attitude/hubris... be forewarned that was mild.... I am completely infuriated/beside myself with his automatic, overkill light traps & his completely callous disregard & uncaring attitude towards life (no matter how small). Silly me... I had, as had a few others as well, naturally & mistakenly thought that Brou, having more than 400 traps, would practice catch & release of unwanted specimens. It was only 2 nights ago that I finally noticed, in yet another thread, that Brou had begun casually listing off, with complete abandon, (indeed almost seeming with pride/delight) astronomical numbers of insects that he killed needlessly, with his homemade cyanide (he must have drums of it!) kill traps! Unbelievable Quotes below:
"I have personally operated light traps for over 40,000,000 trap hrs to date"
Are we, as fellow collectors & custodians of our dying hobby, supposed to be impressed or horrified by these numbers.... Who would actually (Who Cares?) take the time to work out the math on how many hrs, you have run your light traps for over a 46 yr. period.... pure bragging to me. I have also been collecting continuously, with a lowly 4 traps, for four decades; I hand pick out perhaps a dozen or more choice specimens in total each morning (depending on level of moth activity.. up here in central NE SK we are lucky to get 2-3 wks. of warm nights above 50 F scattered throughout the entire collecting season). Unwanted specimens are always catch & release... wild birds get fed (as nature would have it anyways), some escape back to the woods (only to be recaught the next night...oh well), some die naturally in the traps & are swept out & make excellent lawn fertilizer... I really am curious what Brou does with those 100's/1,000's?? of kilograms of cyanide soaked, pathetic little bodies over the yrs.? They would be classed as deadly toxic waste.... dump them in the bayous?/water?/bury?/burn them?... maybe he will tell us...
"For 46 yrs. I have collected hundreds of billions of insects here on my rural property using my inventory of 400+ traps & often have 10 or more Cornell drawers of expertly pinned, spread, labeled & determined specimens."
Correction: for 46 yrs. you have only (by my calculations - collected & kept around 1,679,000 specimens... indeed quite an unbelievable feat by itself for only 2 people at 100/specimens a day X 16,790 days (= 46 yrs); all the billons left were yet again needlessly/shamelessly killed; I still seriously doubt the complete numbers kept & mounted; The last thing my ex told me when she moved out was "You love your damn bugs more than me!" & according to the numbers I would have had collected & mounted in SK (that took me 40 yrs. here) could be collected in about 30 seconds in Louisiana (if you crank up all 400 traps!..). Yeesch... Brou must have one incredibly patient, talented & understanding wife/helper.
"I have taken on my best 24 hr. collecting period about 34,000,000 insects"
I am still shocked... I simply can't imagine such a huge number in one day; those 100 choice specimens picked out (leaving 33,999,990 to die in vain!) better all be new state records! Seriously Brou when you state/restate this crazy number what exactly are you thinking?? Why do I always get the impression that you seem to enjoy quoting such obscene numbers.
"No, none of my collected specimens are released, difficult to do that in automatic collecting devices using cyanide. Sorry to say I discard 99.99999% of my captures" "Don't bother criticizing me for my methods. I've heard it all. Move on."
BAHAHAHAHA.... FOFL... so you believe you are beyond criticism....Huh...WHY???... because the positive results of the discovery of new spp./range extensions etc., etc. justify the wanton, wholesale slaughter of BILLIONS (by your own words!) of insects... I have no problems with people going out with killing traps on field trips or running even a few cyanide traps on a regular basis... your setups are just complete & utter OVERKILL! The fact that you are obviously incredibly proud of developing a completely automated, wholesale killing system is completely absurd.... that's like a factory canning ship pulling huge 1 mile long nets catching every living thing in sight... then processing 100 cans of sardines & throwing the rest back. I understand all about insects & their massive reproductive capabilities, especially in an semi-tropical location, but seriously "Buddy" you & your "I'm too old to listen or learn any new tricks routine is getting a bit weary.
How can anyone in this day & age of hyper-sensitive environmentalism & everyone walking around with placards demanding govt's clean up & stop the wholesale destruction of our beautiful earth justify what you are doing? I am not a rabid environmentalist, but I collect bugs, within reason... after all I wouldn't belong to this website. For God's sake, at this point I am actually getting teary eyed when I think of what you are doing... I honestly think that your killing ways are immoral.. & that you Brou are morally bankrupt.
On a much less important level how in the hell do you think releasing these types of numbers on a public forum like this is going to help the cause for all of us collectors??? It may bring immense personal satisfaction to your massive selfish ego that seems to require constant stroking & public recognition (while the rest of us are too afraid to be seen in public with a butterfly net as a consequence). I honestly cannot understand in what kind of surreal, fantasy world you live in??... I think you should go see those very same mental health professionals you recommended I visit in your last little tirade; they can give you a big double dose of those psychotropic drugs you wanted to give to me....hahaha.... oh yeah...now you're finally a doctor too eh?. Doesn't feel very nice to have everything thrown right back in your face does it? You really need to learn a little humility & compassion for all living things big & small plus your fellow man. Oh well you can keep on whining & feeling sorry for yourself that you are the victim here & that little ole me... the average collector is to blame for all this unwanted attention. There are hundreds, maybe thousands around the world, collectors & noncollectors alike who will see these postings.... yes indeed the world will judge who the crazy one is. I said at the beginning of this posting you are quite literally giving all of us collectors worldwide a bad (worse) name. Give up the cyanide, take the wife on an around the world cruise, leave the birds some bugs to eat, relax already. I mean really... how much is enough?? You've already discovered more than 300 new spp. of bugs from Louisiana; you already have your name immortalized in new scientific bug names (& probably will have many more).
Yes when is enough...enough?? I don't know whether to cry in pity for you or start howling again in laughter. Now I see that friends are convincing you that you are turning into a superman-hybrid alien??... I think you need new friends... this is yet another unbeliveable actual Brou quote hot right off theInsectnet.com forums... Brou's friends say "Vern... I strongly suspect you are some kind of alien with multiple brains or something. My mind is boggled by what you do... Absolutely boggled".... don't forget to take your meds & fast...you are indeed a legend... in your own mind.
John K.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 22, 2015 1:04:10 GMT -8
Getting back to the subject at hand. I see there is a significant void concerning understanding why we need thousands of specimens of the 'same species' First question is how do you know that the name you are assigning to your specimen is that species. I recently received my 7th patronym, because I spread most every specimen of the genus Doryodes that showed up in my light traps for over 45 years and when research was conducted upon the moth genus Doryodes in eastern North America, I submitted my Louisiana material, many hundreds of spread adults. Six new species were described when the generic revision was published: zookeys.pensoft.net/articles.php?id=6087 Among my material from Louisiana, apparently I had four species, three of them were new undescribed species. Same for when I revised the eastern North America genus Baileya: Two new species of Baileya Grote (Nolidae: Risobinae) from the southeastern United States. Jour. Lepid. Soc. 58: 94-99. For this research I spread 1016 Louisiana adults. As a result, I discovered and described two new species of Baileya. Same for when I conducted my 30 year study on the Sphingidae of Louisiana, in which we reported capturing 83,889 adult Sphingidae specimens. That resulted in the discovery of two new North American species of sphingidae. The fourth example concerns Sesiidae. I have operated numerous traps for these moths: pheromone traps, light traps, and bait traps resulting in capturing far in excess of 100,000 adult clearwing moths. Why because only 2-3 species were known for the state of Louisiana when I began my research. Now 46 years later, we have discovered a total of 35 described species and 25 additional new undescribed species. The pasted images are just a small portion of what I take over a couple of months. What I am trying to convey to the non-taxonomist reading this is that when you leave all those thousands of moths at your lights, you really don't have a clue as to what they actually are. If you disagree with my statement here, read my four example here again. I could have posted 400+ scenarios just like these four that I have personally been involved in concerning new species of moths I have discovered. Want to discover species new to your area or perhaps new species, collect every specimen you possibly can. Collect a couple of moths you thought were a very common species e.g. abc, and left a hundred of them on your sheet under the glare of UV lights and in field conditions and when you get home you discover it wasn't that common species, but rather a species you have never seen before or possibly a new species. Happens quite often, more than quite often.
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