Fernando
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Post by Fernando on Feb 25, 2011 8:15:38 GMT -8
Just out of curiosity, as I'm not a collector myself: what are the most expensive (or difficult to get) Saturniidae species?
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Post by boghaunter1 on Feb 25, 2011 9:53:28 GMT -8
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Post by saturniidave on Feb 25, 2011 10:45:58 GMT -8
Here's another, Argema kuhnei, never seen them for sale apart from the ones I got and there were very few of those. There are many other species that fall into that category, mainly from Africa and South America. Dave Attachments:
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Post by saturniidave on Feb 25, 2011 10:49:21 GMT -8
And another, Antistathmoptera daltonae (how's that for a Genus?). This is subspecies granti which is probably the 'commonest' of the three subspecies, but it would still set you back a couple of hundred Dollars. Dave Attachments:
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando on Feb 25, 2011 11:34:06 GMT -8
Very nice moths! What about Bunaeopsis saffronica? I read about it on Bill Oehlke's site. It's not as beautiful as the ones you mentioned, but seems like it's extremely rare (only 5 known specimens around the world  ). I wonder what makes all these species that difficult to find? |
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Post by saturniidave on Feb 25, 2011 17:00:04 GMT -8
It is up there with the rarest but more have been found recently.
The problems with a lot of these species is the areas they live in are hard to get to or just too dangerous! Also I think some like the A. besanti do not emerge from the cocoon every year, only when conditions are just right.
Hopefully some will become more accessible over the years as has happened with species like Actias chapae, maybe we will even breed them one day!
Dave
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando on Feb 25, 2011 18:52:51 GMT -8
I see. Thanks for all the info, I really appreciate it  |
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Post by africaone on Feb 26, 2011 3:13:21 GMT -8
for besanti, I am not sure it will become available as dubernardii or other actias. The rarity of Actias was due to the country access, not the case of besanti. You can't imagine how many travels spent for it failed ! ... dozens ! and you can find it in the all Eastern Kenya and adjacent aeras in Ethiopia (probably also Somalia). It is not localised.
saffronica is not a Bunaeopsis ! It is something nearer to Nudaurelia cythaerea group (for which the genus name Montanaurelia is available !). it is strictly endemic to the copperbelt or adjacent area. There are more than 5 specimens known (I know at least 7) despite very few must been in collection ! It is one of the big Saturniidae for which the female is still unknown (as I know). I will not be surprised to discover it in Southern Katanga at altitude up 1500-1700 m.
many things must be done in Africa. can you imagine that Antistathmoptera rectangulata was recently collect in Eastern Zambia, a completely new locality outside the classic range of the genus.
Thierry
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Post by oehlkew on Feb 26, 2011 5:39:05 GMT -8
Recent DNA barcoding has and will result in many classification changes, especially for the African Saturniidae. In 2010 almost
200 new names/descriptions were put forward for worldwide Saturniidae by Brechlin and Meister. It will be interesting to see if all these new determinations stand the test of time. Perhaps they will; perhaps they won't.
There may yet be some adjustments in the barcoding system to the "allowable" threshholds of difference to warrant new species determinations.
Hopefully the recent barcoding projects, which I believe were largely publicly funded (government grants: direct or indirect; I could be wrong), will soon provide publications regarding changes
supported by the analysis.
Luigi Racheli very recently sent me a digital image of Arsenura batesii aurantiaca, of which there are probably only 3-4 known specimens in collections.
Some of the "rarer" species come from remote areas; others may have habits that make them less likely to be taken at lights.
Females generally respond to lights less frequently than males. In some cases the calling times for females is at a time when many collectors have retired.
Hyalophora columbia columbia which has a somewhat limited range in eastern Canada and northeastern border USA states
is not often taken at lights. The females begin calling at dawn and that is the time the males are on the wing. The males can get distracted by lights and do appear at them, but they seem less likely to be mesmerized by the lights as there appearance there coincides with the brighter light of dawn.
Several years ago Derek Bridgehouse and I were looking for columbia in Malay Falls, Nova Scotia. Derek had a caged, unmated
female which we put behind one of two telephone poles which supported a collecting sheet behind a 175 watt mv light.
When we checked the sheet and retired around 1:30 am, there were no columbia males at the light. When we returned at approximately 4:45 am to check the female, rendered inaccessible to male columbia via cage within a cage, there were over fifty (not an exaggeration) male columbia on the sheet.
Males of some species are completely diurnal and only fly at specific hours in the day.
It is hard for me to imagine a truly rare Saturniidae species in nature. If there are very low numbers of them, "good" predation or disease years would either wipe them out or render a gene pool that I do not think would be too healthy.
Total habitat destruction will likely to create some extinctions, but I suspect where species maintain a population, there are good numbers present, and either habits or location are most responsible for scarcity in collections.
I am currently working on some thumbnail checklists for Argentina and looked at comments regarding Leucanella bivius as I prepared that thumbnail. Lemaire indicates in his Hemileucinae 2002 that the specimen described as
Automeris bivius by Bouvier in 1927 might be a hatural hybrid of
Leucanella lama and Leucanella stuarti.
DNA barcoding I am sure is a very useful tool. I think it will become even more refined and useful over time. There will probably be revisions of revisions even within the barcoding system as breeders contribute larval images or actual larvae for examination or as the procedures are tweaked.
Leucanella bivius is listed on barcoding websites, usually without
images, and it probably has not been barcoded due to lack of specimen parts availability. Maybe it is a natural hybrid, maybe an aberration, maybe a good species.
Thierry's comments on Argema besanti are interesting. It is widely dispersed but seldom taken. Perhaps it is just barely hanging on as a species nearing extinction. Perhaps there are boom and bust years due to predation, host specific diseases and or predators.
I was very surprised here on PEI about ten to fifteen years ago when I suddenly could find no Smerinthus cerisyi (Sphingidae) at lights. In previous years I had enountered males and females at just about every business night light that I visited, and I often drove considerable distances looking for female columbia at lights for rearing purposes. The disappearance of cerisyi lasted for about two years, and then suddenly they reappeared in good numbers only to nearly disappear again five to ten years later.
I see them again now in good numbers, but I would not be surprised to experience another disappearance and reappearance. I have seen the same thing with cecropia. I suspect widespread viruses, but I am not sure.
Bill Oehlke
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Post by dertodesking on Feb 26, 2011 13:42:09 GMT -8
Some of the "rarer" species come from remote areas; others may have habits that make them less likely to be taken at lights. Females generally respond to lights less frequently than males. In some cases the calling times for females is at a time when many collectors have retired. Males of some species are completely diurnal and only fly at specific hours in the day. It is hard for me to imagine a truly rare Saturniidae species in nature. If there are very low numbers of them, "good" predation or disease years would either wipe them out or render a gene pool that I do not think would be too healthy. Total habitat destruction will likely to create some extinctions, but I suspect where species maintain a population, there are good numbers present, and either habits or location are most responsible for scarcity in collections. Bill Oehlke Bill, Couldn't agree more with the points you make in your very thorough posting. I think something else that needs to be considered is the sheer VASTNESS of the potential search area many of these species inhabit. A moth (or any other species for that matter) wouldn't have to be that rare to evade detection in an area the size of the African continent (or even "just" part of the continent). After all, although known to locals the Giant Panda wasn't "discovered" by Western scientists until 1927 and we are talking about a LARGE animal in that case. Even now, new species of large mammal are being discovered (I believe that one of the latest is a species of pygmy antelope in Vietnam). With that in mind I think that there is a fair chance of a species of moth evading capture or only being caught on the odd occassion thereby creating the impression that it is rarer in nature than it actually is. Just my thoughts! Simon |
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Post by downundermoths on Feb 27, 2011 0:06:03 GMT -8
Thierry...you write:
"saffronica is not a Bunaeopsis ! It is something nearer to Nudaurelia cythaerea group (for which the genus name Montanaurelia is available !). it is strictly endemic to the copperbelt or adjacent area. There are more than 5 specimens known (I know at least 7) despite very few must been in collection ! It is one of the big Saturniidae for which the female is still unknown (as I know). I will not be surprised to discover it in Southern Katanga at altitude up 1500-1700 m"
Do you have a picture of this one? I collected Saturniidae on the Zambian Copperbelt for three years in the 70's and have lots of undetermined specimens...Cheers...
Barry
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Post by oehlkew on Feb 27, 2011 1:37:30 GMT -8
Barry,
There are two images of saffronica on WLSS. It is still listed there as a Bunaeopsis species, but I will move it shortly to the genus suggested by Thierry.
If you post your images of Zambian Saturniidae to this forum in the Lepidoptera section or the id section, I will attempt to id them for you, or you can send them to me personally as jpg images. In return for the id service, I would like permission to post images, credited to you, on the WLSS.
All images I post on the WLSS remain the property of respective photographers and are credited as such. It is helpful when sending images to include as much data as possible: date, location as precise as possible, wingspan (distance from one wing tip to the other wingtip when moth is spread as per museum display, ie., inner margin perpendicular to the body), elevation, clock arrival time, etc.
If you have a substantive number of high quality jpg images for posting to the site with data, I will offer you free membership to the private site.
I currently have 73 Saturniidae species listed for Zambia and I have images available to me of almost all of them. Ids do not yet reflect new determinations which might be forthcoming as a result of DNA barcoding, but the site will be updated when that info becomes available.
Bill Oehlke
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando on Feb 27, 2011 17:43:24 GMT -8
Thank you all, specially Bill for the elaborate reply.
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Post by mothman27 on Jan 19, 2019 9:27:17 GMT -8
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Post by Paul K on Jan 19, 2019 9:54:47 GMT -8
I have few specimens of C.jehovah but all males that I collected in F.Guiana, females are hard to catch as they rarely coming to lights. I believe they must be difficult to farm as we would see more of them for sale. Paul |
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