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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 27, 2014 18:26:53 GMT -8
more like a "sacoptera" that is heliophile like Charaxes than adonina that is sciaphile ! I heard (or read) somewhere that "sacoptera" may be chemically protected ! note that jolybouyeri is more greenish like the sacoptera from Occidental Africa and fournierae is more yellowish like the sarcoptera from central africa. "cyparissa + sacoptera" are only "true Euphaedra" that are separated in a separate subgenus (probably a genus) because of their behaviour, first instars, etc., all other species being more closely related to Bebearia. A phylogentic study is in need to clarify definitively the situation. Well that's interesting. I have greenish E. sarcoptera and cyparissa in my collection and they were from Ghana. I've never seen the golden forms
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Post by africaone on Jun 28, 2014 3:58:46 GMT -8
mon français s'améliore lentement ..... One thing that's been bugging me (no pun intended) is whether or not fournierae are territorial (protects a small patch of forest.) It looks like they could easily cover a lot of ground in a short time, so maybe they just follow scent trails around? congratulation for learning french, not easy ! .... as far as I know, fournierae don't have the typical territorial Charaxes behaviour !
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 30, 2014 0:48:22 GMT -8
There is a nice one currently offered on Ebay.fr here
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Post by jshuey on Jun 30, 2014 5:54:26 GMT -8
Why does it mimic Euphaedra species? Is Euphaedra poisonous? There is a consensus in the Neotropics that there are “catch me if you can” mimicry complexes. In the Subfamily Charaxinae, the one example that I am personally familiar with is Agrias aedon rodriguezi and Siderone syntyche syntyche, which are almost impossible to tell apart on the wing (hard to believe from dead specimens photos – but in flight all you see is amazing red and blue reflected by harsh tropical sunlight). I’ve seen both these species flying at exactly the same spot, and the resemblance cannot be a coincidence. The thinking is that even though these species are probably tasty, birds learn that it is a waste of time even trying to catch them because of their rapid and evasive flight patterns. There are extensive examples in big bodied skippers that fly like “bats out of hell” – the silver spot patterns of Epargyreus, Drephalys, Aguna, and even hesperines like Aides and Xeniades are a great example. They all look alike at the speeds they move around the forest. The “blue bombers” in Phocides and various Pyrrhopygini and even the hersperines like Thracides, Pseudosarbia and Pyrrhopygopsis form multiple mimicry complexes around each other as well. Another great example is the white banded Adelpha species and riodinids in the genus Thisbe. They seem very different to us, but both groups perch on tree tops showing off those big white bands and again, are really agile fliers. Granted – no-one has tested this (I’m not sure how you would test this) – but the fact that in most cases, the that there is no reason to suspect that the species are distasteful and that the bugs very strong fliers, act the same and fly together make you think that something is going on. John
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 13:18:34 GMT -8
The thinking is that even though these species are probably tasty, birds learn that it is a waste of time even trying to catch them because of their rapid and evasive flight patterns. John Totally agree John. Looking over the commonly accepted forms and processes of mimicry, it must be more complex than we currently think. On a different note, does anybody know why fournierae can have between two and four spots on the verso hindwing? I assume it is probably a seasonal or locality variance?
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Post by africaone on Jul 1, 2014 22:41:24 GMT -8
On a different note, does anybody know why fournierae can have between two and four spots on the verso hindwing? I assume it is probably a seasonal or locality variance?[/quote]
fournierae habitus is quite variable including number of black patches and groung color ! I have seen large series with great variation ! i.e. types of kigeziensis are quite aberant with numerous black patches. In Gabon and Cameroun, the ground color can vary from orange to green.
It is usual in mimics species !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 13:11:30 GMT -8
Thanks for all the info Thierry. You are most knowledgeable. The Société d’Entomologie africaine is also quite professional and I would suggest Entomologia Africana to anybody interested in African beetles or Lepidoptera!
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Post by norton on Jul 5, 2014 8:45:39 GMT -8
All the indications are that the foodplant is known to some people. The number of 100% perfect specimens from Gabon sold on the market over the last 20 years points clearly to the species being bred or pupa collected from the foodplant. We hear from time to time from third parties that the species is being bred. Obviously as there are BIG BUCKS involved, the person has a very good reason to keep the information for his own use and no one can blame him. It is rather similar to the locality of the first Charaxes jolybouyeri - where a deliberate misleading declaration was made to keep it secret - obviously again for financial reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 12:16:57 GMT -8
All the indications are that the foodplant is known to some people. The number of 100% perfect specimens from Gabon sold on the market over the last 20 years points clearly to the species being bred or pupa collected from the foodplant. We hear from time to time from third parties that the species is being bred. Obviously as there are BIG BUCKS involved, the person has a very good reason to keep the information for his own use and no one can blame him. It is rather similar to the locality of the first Charaxes jolybouyeri - where a deliberate misleading declaration was made to keep it secret - obviously again for financial reasons. It does seem such a well known species must have more information associated with it. At the very least, locals in the area surely have had encounters with fournierae. Especially in Gabon where many tribes are fairly primitive, such as the Baka. Being hunter-gatherers, these people have a close relationship with the land. All over the world, inquiring parties have turned to these primitive locals for information about the local flora and fauna. Plants of medicinal interest are a good example. Fournierae does have a certain mystique associated with it, but from a business standpoint, it would make more sense to sell 10 specimens for $50 than 1 for $400. This is a species which is beautiful enough that no matter the availability, specimens will sell. There are certain "rare" species I have seen which go for thousands of dollars that I wouldn't pay $20 for, simply because I do not find them beautiful.
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Post by africaone on Jul 7, 2014 10:27:34 GMT -8
fournierae is not bred otherwise many more had come on the market espacially females and also in A1 quality. the quantity of fournierae that come on the market each year is very limited (no more than some dozens) nothing to do with a bred species. There is no culture of breeding in Africa (for many reasons) and the only countries from where breeding specimens are available are Tanzania, RSA and Kenya (espacially concerning Papilio, Graphium, some Charaxes and other spectacular species such as Argema mimosae). This is not like in other continents from where many bred species feed the market in thousands ! and yes the type locality of jolybouyeri was protected in the first years against "pure collectors" that likes to make the lesson but that were ready to do the impossible to commercialise it. imagine also that the locality in RCi was completely false (none jolybouyeri has been caught in Tai forest, the paper citing this locality was the worse paper never published on the subject ! the author lied for purely commercial reason and to conceal his provider in Guinea)
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norton
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Post by norton on Jul 17, 2014 9:39:50 GMT -8
Actually the foodplant , or at least one of them, is known. It is a certain species of epiphytic orchid. The females have been observed laying on it. It may of course be polyphagous and use other plants.
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Post by africaone on Jul 17, 2014 10:11:03 GMT -8
Actually the foodplant , or at least one of them, is known. It is a certain species of epiphytic orchid. The females have been observed laying on it. It may of course be polyphagous and use other plants. why not! an good news! do you know which orchid ? there are hundreds of them in Africa ! epiphytic orchid are also used by Sphingid (Theretra orpheus group). it must be a deep forest species sufficiently big (not a Bulbophyllum or other small leaves species then !) most species are not easy to get and of course to check !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 12:52:01 GMT -8
Actually the foodplant , or at least one of them, is known. It is a certain species of epiphytic orchid. The females have been observed laying on it. It may of course be polyphagous and use other plants. This is very good news indeed! If you could elaborate it would be most appreciated.
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Post by lordpandarus on Apr 1, 2018 4:08:51 GMT -8
I'll post another pic when I remove it from the spreading board but I have a question about this specimen . I was expecting this species to be more metallic gold but rather it's sort of a ochre color with no metallic sheen or irridescence it comes from north Kivu DRC. Could it be a different subspecies than the nominate? If I look at the map it seems close to Rwanda and the color seems more like Charaxes fournierae vandenberghei from that area (of the pictures I've seen) Or is this species just very variable? Reference pictures: v3.boldsystems.org/index.php/Taxbrowser_Taxonpage?taxid=99611
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 7:02:59 GMT -8
Mine have a lovely purple sheen when viewed at an angle, yours does look much lighter in colour.
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