|
Post by timoinsects on Sept 10, 2012 21:35:02 GMT -8
Simon,
if you want a perfect answer 'WHY' i think you can ask Lucanidae. ;D
for me i just think, 1) it's not i did,but a friend,was from his breeding,that he sent me thouse photos last night soon after fighting over then i transfered the photos here immediatlly. 2) their mandiable not just for showy,they like to fight is not we human's fault. they can choose not fight when put them together but they didn't. and i think the fighting could materialize their mandiable's ture value,it's 100% natural.
( ⊙ o ⊙ )!
|
|
|
|
Post by africaone on Sept 10, 2012 22:21:41 GMT -8
are they separates shoots or images of a movie ?
|
|
|
Post by timoinsects on Sept 10, 2012 23:43:11 GMT -8
are photos,not a video,what a pity.
|
|
|
Post by dertodesking on Sept 11, 2012 0:22:20 GMT -8
Lucanidae/Timo, I hear what you're saying that this is what their mandibles are for ( : and is what would have happened in nature if they were fighting over females or territory...but they're not. They are clearly in captivity and I can't see why you would want to make them fight? I'd much rather have two specimens than one... Simon
|
|
|
Post by bichos on Sept 11, 2012 2:21:23 GMT -8
Prosopocoilus giraffa (indo)and Odontolabis intermedius or alces (phil)? "A Bloody fighting" lol These photos are awesome, if I had access to large living lucanids like these, I too would let them fight at least once. Letting them fight like this satisfies our curiosity as to how the mandibles are used. Keeping and collecting them in the first place is only due to that curiosity. To d'king: Not everyone breeds beetles in order to pocess specimens, people breed them for different reasons. These bugs are built for fighting and given half a chance, that's exactly what they'll do. So how will you kill your next specimen? letting it fight to death? or droping it in a killing bottle? We are lucky to be able to make such choices, how will I kill my next bug
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 11, 2012 4:15:57 GMT -8
How else would you be able to find out which mandibles design is better than the other??? This will be the only way to find out. We can guess all we want about which Lucanid has a better mandibles design but untill we can put them in a flight. We'll never know. Those live specimens were that big any way. ;D
People only want big one not little one for their collection.... ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by bichos on Sept 11, 2012 4:25:31 GMT -8
Too right, they were NOT that big and thus not worth much at all :/
|
|
|
Post by dertodesking on Sept 11, 2012 4:37:07 GMT -8
Prosopocoilus giraffa (indo)and Odontolabis intermedius or alces (phil)? "A Bloody fighting" lol These photos are awesome, if I had access to large living lucanids like these, I too would let them fight at least once. Letting them fight like this satisfies our curiosity as to how the mandibles are used. Keeping and collecting them in the first place is only due to that curiosity. To d'king: Not everyone breeds beetles in order to pocess specimens, people breed them for different reasons. These bugs are built for fighting and given half a chance, that's exactly what they'll do. So how will you kill your next specimen? letting it fight to death? or droping it in a killing bottle? We are lucky to be able to make such choices, how will I kill my next bug Bichos, Judging by these photos you'd only get a chance to let them fight once! Anyway, my view may not be rational and may imply double standards...I have no problem killing a bud to add it to my collection but I just can't see the point of letting one beetle to rip another to bits? When I'm out collecting I only take what I consider to be acceptable quality for my collection - I don't/wouldn't collect and kill a specimen for the sake of it. Equally, while I'd be interested to watch a couple of wild lucanids fighting if I stumbled across them I wouldn't collect or bred a couple of males and them allow them to fight/put them together knowing that they would. This hobby is already branded by many as being the preserve of "nutters" or "lunatics" who arbitraily kill for the sake of it so that they can drool over drawers of dead specimens...I fear that if those same people saw these pictures they'd brand us as sadists as well... Simon
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 11, 2012 4:50:37 GMT -8
Who bloody cares!!!! I'm not........... If I have to spend time thinking how others think of me...... I wouldn't have enough time in this world. There're too many people in this world.
|
|
|
Post by bichos on Sept 11, 2012 5:19:42 GMT -8
Good come back Simon I agree, (I was ready for a fight lol) I would hate to think what other people would think if they saw these ppictures and comments, like my "normal" friends and associates, they would NOT be impressed at all. I like this forum because I often express myself without holding back as much as I do in daily life. My cinisism and unconventional views are normally repressed somewhat.
|
|
|
Post by saturniidave on Sept 11, 2012 15:32:08 GMT -8
It is just beetles doing what comes naturally, but I see the points made above when they are doing it in an un-natural environment. If they are made to fight just for our entertainment then I agree that is wrong, but if they are made to fight to observe their behaviour and see how they use their mandibles that is another matter. Having been on the receiving end of the mandibles of our native Stag Beetle I can testify to the fact that they use them well!
As an aside, when I was a kid here in England Lucanus cervus was a common insect. We would collect males and bring them to school in little boxes then make them fight, we would put wagers on each one. We never let the fight go too far though, the first beetle on its back was the loser, then they would be separated. If you had a good fighter you wanted to keep it alive for the next one! I would never condone this now as it is cruel, plus they are scarce and protected here now, but as kids it was entertaining.
|
|
|
Post by mantisboy on Sept 11, 2012 16:02:36 GMT -8
I had an interesting battle go on a couple of years ago. In one week I had collected my second brown prionid (Orthosoma brunneum) and my first caterpillar hunter(Calasoma scructator). Unthinkingly, I placed them both in the same container and planned on separating them the next day. When I woke up I had a pretty nasty suprise. I don't know exactly what happened, but the prionid had 3 tarsal claws missing, and the caterpillar hunter was missing the tarsal claws of 1 leg, the tibia of 4 legs, and all of one leg! It also had 1 and 1/2 antenna missing. I was pretty mad about it at first, but I wish i could have seen what happened!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 18:38:33 GMT -8
First, I'll say that this is not for me.....not what I'd choose to do with two beetles. I recently reared L. elaphus and never even thought about letting them fight.
Second, the experiment ... "How else would you be able to find out which mandibles design is better than the other??? This will be the only way to find out. We can guess all we want about which Lucanid has a better mandibles design but untill we can put them in a flight." To actually ascertain which mandible is best, one has to include the following: 1. Were they the same exact size? 2. Were both fed the same diet and were they the same age? 3. Was one put in an advantageous position over the other? 4. Was the experiment repeated?....and on. Basically, if one is to investigate mandibles, then most all other varialbles have to be factored out in order for true data/results to develop. Even something as simple as lighting (if one is comparing different species) could be a factor.
I have seen them fight....sort of.....in the wild. Would having females nearby alter the results? In the large aquarium set-up my friend had, fighting almost only happened among the males if a female were around. I don't think I saw many fights of males just duking it out for the heck of it.
"letting it fight to death? or droping it in a killing bottle?
We are lucky to be able to make such choices, how will I kill my next bug."
Interesting thought/point.
In my humble opinion, when I put one into the jar, I know it is going to be preserved for years to come. If I elect to do the fight thing, then nothing but pieces will remain. I also take great pride in collecting insects to see that they die quickly and with some degree of purpose. Watching one animal destroy another just isn't for me.....that's all. That form of entertainment is not a part of my psyche.
I am not saying all this with disdain, but merely to share my thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 11, 2012 19:27:11 GMT -8
I would only like to see them flighting with different Lucanid genus to see which genus has a better design, I don't see the point finding out with the same sp. With that it's all going to come down to sizes. Different mandible from different sp would work differently, some are purely for strength like Dorcus but others are for lifting like P. giraffa. It's much harder to do with different genus even with the same sizes, same everything..... I think you would find some mandibles would always work better than others. What I've found is the crashing mandible has always a advantage over the lifting one, the lifting sp would only works if they came across another lifting one.
|
|
|
Post by dertodesking on Sept 13, 2012 1:18:17 GMT -8
Good come back Simon I agree, (I was ready for a fight lol) I would hate to think what other people would think if they saw these ppictures and comments, like my "normal" friends and associates, they would NOT be impressed at all. I like this forum because I often express myself without holding back as much as I do in daily life. My cinisism and unconventional views are normally repressed somewhat. Hi Bichos, That's the great thing about the forum...we all have a passion for entomology and while we may have different views/experiences/opinions etc its a great place where we can come together to discuss and share our thoughts and still be friends at the end of it! Simon
|
|