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Post by thanos on Jan 7, 2012 21:26:07 GMT -8
Well.. From the photos attached above,I shaped the impression that the specimen is fake,cause the abdomen looked so like painted,and I supposed that male's wings are glued on the right side. But I have to say and mention that I instantly had noticed that the left antenna is longer than the right...,and thought that this is maybe a real gynandromorph.. After this, I searched and found on eBay the listing,and there,the seller has MORE photos. So I examined carefully each one. On the photo I attach here(is one of the seller's photos on his listing on eBay) : the specimen is UNMOUNTED here,and so it is UNLIKELY that male's wings are glued on female's thorax,cause,when relaxed by the buyer, the pieces of the 'puzzle' would become disconnected,and cause the seller has both photos of mounted and unmounted position of the same specimen,and I think that if it was a fake glued specimen,it would be offered only as mounted.. ALSO, from this unmounted angle of view(from the male's side), the last abdominal segment looks very much to be a male's CLASPER ,and also the color of the abdomen doesn't look fake from here,but of normal male's coloration.. SO,my final opinion,after better examination of more photos : Yes,it is REAL. Oh,but the specimen is super-overpriced in my opinion. About Andrew Colley : I had bought some years ago a few Ornithoptera from him,and I can say he is honest. The delay in delivery was really long,but he sent me the specimens 2 times for this to be sure that I will receive them (!). Sincerely, Thanos Attachments:
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Post by lepper on Jan 8, 2012 8:04:37 GMT -8
Hello All, First of all, thanks to everyone who came to my defense on this issue (Greg, et al) and alerting me to the above comments. I can assure you that this is not a FAKE Gynandromorph as some would surmise. It was obtained from a very honest and highly reputable dealer in Indonesia who I have dealt with for many years.
I don't know how many of you have actually caught a real gynandromorph in the field, but I have. I caught an almost mint perfect bilat Euphydryas anicia anicia a few years ago which exhibited all of the characteristics, including different antennae lengths, a larger wing size for the female half, etc. It was immediately recognizable as a gynandromorph! It is now in one of the largest private collections in the U.S. I must say Thanos, you are very astute! I did receive this gyn haliphron as a papered specimen and as you can see by some of the photo's I posted on Ebay it shows significant differences between the left and right size, including different colouration, antennae length and a split colouration for the abdomen. As far as the genitalia go it is difficult to discern the differences between the male and female components without doing a dissection. I also noticed this same difficulty when looking at the genitalia of the Euphydryas anicia gynandromorph and the difficulty to discern the differences between the ovipositor/clasper components without doing a dissection.
Hey, guess what? This specimen does look perfect and since it does then some would assume it is a fake, however, it is ex-pupae as most Ornithoptera are (at least the legal ones anyway) so guess what? - It should look perfect!
If this was a fake specimen, then it would surely be obvious when I spread it and I can assure you it spread like any other of the hundreds of REAL ex-pupae Ornithoptera I have relaxed and spread over the years. There are no wings attached by glue on this specimen. In fact, if someone could re-produce a gynandromorph tht looks like this one, then they should not be wasting there time counterfeiting Butterflies, but should be counterfeiting money!
If anyone is interested in additional macro photo’s I can send them to you. Just email me at wynlyn(at)shaw. Also, if anyone does have a photo of a REAL FAKE bilateral gynander, please post it on this thread as I would love to see one.
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Post by Zacatak on Jan 8, 2012 14:06:05 GMT -8
THAT IS A REAL GYNANDROMORPH..
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Post by downundermoths on Jan 8, 2012 17:52:58 GMT -8
With the reply from Andrew (lepper) now in I would suggest that further comments and aspersions are not neccessary... Wow... what a wonderful insect. Now I hope that one of us will buy it, but sadly, it won't be me  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2012 22:45:40 GMT -8
What an interesting discussion this was. I really liked how many people put forth ideas about the bug being real or fake with no name-calling, presence of fairness, and with rather open minds. The different opinions were indeed well expressed and the whole discussion was civil. A nice way to start 2012  Now the seller has quite adequately explained himself and generously offered macro photos of said specimen. It is a gem I'll never own and I think the discussion has come to an end....except to say W O W  |
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Post by lepidofrance on Jan 9, 2012 15:43:28 GMT -8
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 9, 2012 23:35:06 GMT -8
Wonderful picture from Yvan! Thanks Jean-Marc !
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Post by admin on Jan 10, 2012 11:04:26 GMT -8
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Post by dertodesking on Jan 10, 2012 12:10:32 GMT -8
Some very interesting thoughts - particular thanks to Greg and Andrew for your comments. Greg - I think you do yourself a major disservice when you talk about your "meagre knowledge" of Ornithoptera and Troides! I, however, have extremely limited knowledge of gynandromorphs which was why I posted in the first place - I was suprised how very clearly dissimilar the two half of the abdomen are. Do you know if this is a characteristic more commonly found in Troides/Ornithoptera gynandromorphs? Andrew - please accept my apologies if my starting the thread indicated that I doubted your integrity - that wasn't my intention. As stated to Greg (above), I've never seen a specimen with such clear male and female halfs to the abdomen - most I have seen (from a not especially large number) seem to "blend" from one side to the other but not this beauty! I only wish I had the spare cash available to purchase it  Anyway, ditto what Bill said - an interesting sharing of thoughts/knowledge which, for the most part, didn't descend into name-calling or accusations. Simon |
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Post by dertodesking on Jan 10, 2012 12:12:08 GMT -8
Wow indeed !!! Simply a STUNNING butterfly!  Thanks for sharing lepido! Simon |
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Post by lepidofrance on Jan 10, 2012 15:42:12 GMT -8
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