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Post by nusferatus369 on Jan 30, 2011 9:22:50 GMT -8
I will like to know if some one have this specise in is collection or ever si this form. Also hear this specise is extinct i only can find picture in the net. If some one can tell me more about this one. Thans the picture is from Frédéric Carbonell  By nusferatus36 at 2011-01-30 |
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Post by maurizio on Jan 30, 2011 11:01:19 GMT -8
I will like to know if some one have this specise in is collection or ever si this form. Also hear this specise is extinct i only can find picture in the net. If some one can tell me more about this one. Thans the picture is from Frédéric Carbonell Obviously honnorati (or honoratii, as there are two different spelling of the same form in Boisduval's description) is not a species, but a local form of Zerynthia rumina. Fortunately enough, Zerynthia rumina and its subspecies are still quite common in the field, while last specimen of form honnorati was observed about 20 years ago. The image posted by you is a digital reconstruction from museum specimens. I saw few specimens, most of them in the Museums, and I know only a couple of private collections holding such form (my collection is not between them!!!!) |
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Post by bgarthe on Jan 30, 2011 14:43:28 GMT -8
Gee----that is a gem of a bug  |
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Post by nusferatus369 on Jan 30, 2011 14:52:08 GMT -8
I receve the Email from Frédéric Carbonell. the only locality of that form was Digne in French Alpes.
Thanks to maurizio for the information.
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 30, 2011 15:02:38 GMT -8
Yes form honnorati was a very local form due to a local genetic mutation transmitted across generations. It has disappeared because of overcollecting about 20 years ago.
It was a gem but very fragile as it was just a local form. Maybe one day, in another place, the same mutation will also happen... and "honnorati" will ressuscitate !
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vwman
Full Member
Posts: 72
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Post by vwman on Jan 31, 2011 14:32:19 GMT -8
As Z. rumia is not rare couldn't it be bred over generations to recreate that form like P. wiskotti or the golden O.priamus euphorion?
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 31, 2011 23:58:28 GMT -8
Problem is finding a rumina close to "honnorati" to be bred.
A lot of people breed "canteneri" and other forms ... but I never heard of someone achieving to obtain a form close to "honnorati" with them.
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mygos
Full Member
Posts: 230
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Post by mygos on Feb 1, 2011 3:46:46 GMT -8
2 or 3 specimens of "honnorati" have been sold in February 2010 at the big auction in Paris from Hervé de Toulgoët collection !
A+, Michel
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yvan
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by yvan on Feb 2, 2011 2:20:13 GMT -8
The honnorati ab. case is not so simple.
The french scientists' team which succeed in rearing wiskotti and zorro ab., have been working hard for many years on honoratii.
But it seems that the gene is probably lost in the origin populations of Dignes les Bains.
The problem is that the huge rumina populations of Dignes have dramaticly reduced because of forest developpment and human activity.
The overcollecting of the honoratii adults during XX centuary and the absurd systematic predation of caterpillars by some commercial entomologists had also badly affect the chance to find this genetic mutation.
Therefore, we have to wish that :
- the efforts of the scientifics in breeding and interbreeding rumina from Dignes finally succeed ;
- they succeed in finding new source of honoratii in the fragmented populations of Alpes de Haute Provence which were in relation (gene flow) with the Dignes populations in the past.
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Post by inopinatus on Feb 2, 2011 16:54:37 GMT -8
Yvan, You are absolutely right. I am personally convinced that the gene is still present in Southern Digne area but in a % too low to be detected when looking for it. Lets not forget that the capture of such a specimen would be illegal... The beauty of the Hardy-Weinberg Law applying too this recessive mutation is than you can not see the aberration for 20 years with the gene still present in the population... With several official observations in the 80s and another certified female in 1993... the gene is out there As always by far the main reason of this disparition is the sharp decrease of rumina populations due to the loss of their habitat. The mathematical laws of genetics shows that even if 100% of honnorati were always captured by collectors (which is quite impossible), it would take 50 years to divide by two the proportion of the gene in the population and therefore to divide by 4 the observation of honnorati homozygous. This decrease of honnorati was much much faster beetwen the yeard 1885 and 1910; PS: I enclose a picture of old specimens I have in collection (two females caught between 1900 and 1906 and one male caught in 1938 all from Digne) Attachments:
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xavm
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by xavm on Feb 4, 2011 5:29:13 GMT -8
Hello Both,
To complete Yvan's comments, actually some people started to breed and re-breed some Zerynthia from the originating location and population from southerner biotopes. It is expected due gene flow that 1 case out of 10,000 can be an honoratii...
Good luck indeed,
Cheers
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Post by inopinatus on Feb 4, 2011 15:32:41 GMT -8
Xavier,
Are you aware of reliable observations more recent than 1993 cited by Descimon ?
They are always some rumors about that....
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xavm
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by xavm on Feb 10, 2011 22:38:19 GMT -8
Hello Inopinatus,
Yes, the last confirmed observation is from 1995, but nothing since then.... until the gene is back from mil and mil breeding.
Cheers, Xavier
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Post by pittendrighinsects on Nov 25, 2012 10:50:26 GMT -8
I'm just wondering who has the money to pay $1,4000 for a butterfly, If I had the money, I'd spend it on a collecting expedition.
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